A growing number of Church of Christ congregations have, after closely studying scripture, lifted their prohibition on women speaking in the worship assembly and teaching adult Sunday School.
Over half of the Church of Christ-affiliated colleges have changed to allow women to speak in their worship services.
A list of gender-inclusive Churches of Christ is maintained by Wiley Clarkson at Where the Spirit Leads. Several congregations making this change published resources—videos of classes, sermons, Q&A sessions, and announcements, manuscripts discussing scripture, reference lists, decision statements, etc.—reflecting their scripture study.
Below is a list of 10 of them, including a link to such resources and a brief excerpt.
10 Examples of Congregations Making This Change
1. Sycamore View Church of Christ (Memphis, TN)
“We believe that to not move forward regarding both males and females fully participating in our worship settings is not in keeping with the practice and spirit of the New Testament record, nor is it in keeping with the calling of the Holy Spirit. …
We do want to clearly state that although the New Testament provides examples of women speaking, teaching, proclaiming, prophesying, and praying in the early church, we see that the specific roles of elder and evangelist (what we refer to as the role of our “full-time preacher”) were not open to both men and women. We will continue to follow that New Testament practice and example at Sycamore View.”
2. Southern Hills Church of Christ (Abilene, TX)
After “a 19-month period of prayer, study, reading, and discussion to try to make sense of this tension within the New Testament and in our own inconsistent practices … to the best of our understanding, the two restrictive texts in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 were originally intended to be specific responses to particular worship situations in Corinth and Ephesus. They were not originally intended to be universal declarations regarding worship for all churches for all times.
… Now, as one body, your shepherds bless and empower both men and women who have the desire and giftedness to participate in roles of service in our worship gatherings and in the life of our church. Our collective understanding of scripture leads us to affirm that the roles of elder and preaching minister will continue to be filled only by men. Aside from these two roles, … roles of service … previously filled only by men will now be filled at times by men, at times by women, and at times by both ….”
3. Providence_Road Church of Christ (Charlotte, NC)
“… I Timothy 2:11-12 … At issue are the words “to teach” and “exercise authority.” The focus on authority seems clearer when we note that Paul directly follows this section with instructions about elders. They were the final teaching authority in the church. Again, we find that the authoritative teaching of church leadership, through the decisions of the elders on Biblical interpretation and through the preaching of the Word from the pulpit, seems to be at the core of Paul’s restrictions. …
In order for us to be as effective as possible in bring people to Jesus and using all the gifts available to the church, we believe it is the right thing at this time for us to remove the restrictions that have kept women from serving the Lord’s Supper, reading the scriptures and praying in our assemblies. We continue to believe that the role of elder or preacher is one that scripture calls for men to fill.”
4. Meadowbrook Church of Christ (Jackson, MS)
“At Meadowbrook, the elders are unified that female Christians in the congregation may serve in any role where they are gifted & willing except for the roles of Senior Minster/Preacher & Elder/Shepherd….
As one body, the elder group concluded that the Bible teaches full equality of men and women in status, giftedness, and opportunity for ministry and that the church is best served when men and women share responsibilities and serve together as complementary partners.
… Although we affirm full equality of men and women, we are also mindful of the flock. As such, the elders have agreed that 1) those who serve as elders and 2) the preaching minister are to be male only. Following the model of Acts 15, we have deferentially chosen to withhold these two roles for the sake of unity in our church family. …”
5. Glenwood Church of Christ (Tyler, TX)
“Other than the roles of preacher and elder, which are not under consideration by this eldership, we agree that scripture does permit increased roles for women in the worship service, and our services will begin to reflect that.
We want to assure you that the elders and staff are well aware of the need for sensitivity as any changes are made so as not to cause offense, if possible. We grieve for those who have already taken offense due to this study, some of whom have left our assemblies. The unity of this body as we work and worship together is crucial to our witness to the world around us for the sake of the gospel. We believe in encouraging each member to utilize their God-given gifts in worship. And service is also crucial to the spiritual development of this congregation. … Let’s continue our work together for the glory of God. Grace and peace to us all.”
https://vimeo.com/210312754#t=438s
6. Manhattan Church of Christ (New York, NY)
“We believe that the scriptures never intended to SILENCE women in general or in any aspect of the church’s work, public or private. Rather, the scriptures show that it is imperative that the church today make FULL USE of the spiritual gifts of both WOMEN and MEN….”
7. Oak Hills Church (San Antonio, TX)
“Following the report of the Coordinating Committee, the entire elder body (61 in total)
commenced a review and study …. [T]he complete body of elders was asked to consider and cast their vote on two issues:
1) Based on my study and understanding of scripture, women may serve in any and all areas of Oak Hills Church public worship.
2) Based on my study and understanding of scripture, women may serve as elders of
the Oak Hills Church.
Issue one was decided in the affirmative by the elders, while issue two was not affirmed. While neither of the issues was decided by unanimous vote, both were determined by clear majorities. …”
8. Fourth Avenue Church of Christ (Franklin, TN)
“We believe the Bible and we desire to read it in context, always asking whether a statement is descriptive, normative, or authoritative. … [T]hey were meant to address specific concerns in a specific location and were not meant to apply to all women in every place throughout the centuries.
… [A] consistent, in context reading of scripture will not allow us to shut women out of public roles. For example, in First Timothy 2 … tells us that men are to pray with holy hands raised and that women are not to have elaborate hairstyles or jewelry. Most churches will tell you that those latter statements were not meant to limit how we pray or dress today. If so, then we must also believe that Paul’s statement on women teaching is also limited to the situation he was trying to address at the time. … Paul felt the need to address the situation in Ephesus with several commands, most of which we do not apply to ourselves or to our congregations.”
9. Highland Church of Christ (Abilene, TX)
“Paul’s instructions in l Timothy 2.8-15 are:
- Men lift up holy hands when they pray
- Women dress modestly and decently in suitable clothing
- Women not have their hair braided
- Women not to wear gold, pearls, or expensive clothes
- Women to do good works
- Women learn in silence
- Women not to teach or have authority over a man
- Women will be saved through childbearing, providing they continue in faith and holiness, with modesty
… Must we insist that all men lift up holy hands when they pray? … Must women not have their hair braided? Must women not wear gold, pearls, or expensive clothes? … When and where must women learn in silence-at home, at meals, visiting with friends, studying in classes, in Bible classes, in public assemblies, etc.? … If women do not have children, will they be lost? … [W]e have concluded that the instructions in I Timothy 2.8-15 are cultural and situational, not eternal truths. …
Most of those who left Highland refused to discuss this issue from the start. After much study and discussion, at least 95 percent of the members not only remained at Highland, but also enthusiastically supported the decisions the entire church decided upon.”
10. Springfield Church of Christ (Springfield, VA)
“… Timothy 2:12. … contains a Greek construction … — “teach and have authority” — join to create one thought. … [T]he prohibition is against “bossy” or domineering teaching by women. Paul forbids this kind of teaching …. Others find … [it] to mean simply that only men should hold some “authoritative” positions, such as elders/shepherds and preachers. … [W]e observed that these texts did not silence women to the extreme reflected in our past practices. So, while tradition may call for women to be silent in worship, there is evidence that Scripture does not call for such silence.
Therefore, the shepherds … invite women to join with men in serving the church in public roles. In recognition that I Timothy 2:12 can reasonably be taken in different ways, women will not serve as preaching ministers or as elders here, but do serve in other public ways. Our hope is that the Springfield Church of Christ, as the Bride of Christ, will bring glory to God as godly women add their gifts and voices to her ministry.”
Conclusion for Part 1
When did your congregation engage in a deep study and discussion of this issue—-one that did not simply consult sources designed to defend and confirm what your congregation already does, but instead took an objective, hard look at and used multiple resources fairly addressing both sides, that sought to understand reasons churches do not prohibit women from speaking, and that engaged in extended discussions about the topic with people who do not simply affirm what you already thought?
Who was it with? Was it congregation wide? What resources and people who discussed the “other side” did you use that were not inclined to confirm what you previously thought and did? How much time was spent engaged with them and talking about the scripture?
Or does (a) not wanting to take the time to study the issue in depth, (b) peer and denominational pressure to continue the practice, (c) fear that some adults might go to another church if it is brought up, (d) overly relying on decisions trusted men who came before made, (e) fear of finding out that current practice is wrong, or (f) insensitivity to sex discrimination due to its normalization in the church keep your congregation from discussing it?
Ironically, it is these 10 churches and others like them that will endure lots of criticism from people asserting these churches are (a) ignoring the meaning of scripture, (b) caving to cultural and peer pressure, (c) putting keeping and attracting members ahead of God’s commands, (d) following man-made decisions rather than God’s, (e) engaged in sin, and (f) not paying attention to God’s will for women.
Ask yourself if it is the churches who prohibit women from speaking that are doing these things?
20 scripture passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, lead, and have authority over men can be found here.
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Sources and Notes
For a discussion regarding scripture on this issue, see Steve Gardner, “20 Passages Asking Women to Speak, Teach, Lead, and Have Authority Over Men, In the Assembly and Elsewhere,” AuthenticTheology.com (September 3, 2018).
For a discussion regarding 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, see Steve Gardner, “Most Church of Christ Colleges No Longer Exclude Women From Leading in Worship Services: … 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 …,” AuthenticTheology.com (May 22, 2018).
For a discussion regarding 1 Timothy 2:11-15, see Steve Gardner, “Most Church of Christ Colleges No Longer Exclude Women From Leading in Worship Services: … 1 Timothy 2:12 …,” AuthenticTheology.com (May 30, 2018).
A list of gender-inclusive Churches of Christ is maintained by Wiley Clarkson at Where the Spirit Leads.
Picture from pixabay.com — by bearinthenorth.
Mark 12:29-31 (KJV): “29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.”
Note: The Highland discussion quoted is from early/mid 2000s discussion, not any current discussion (3/26).
This is sad…since when did man get smarter than Jehovah…but as Revelation says he who hath an ear let him hear what this said the Lord. I totally disagree.
Hi Lula,
Thank you for your comment.
Here are 20+ Bible passages in which Jehovah asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere.
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
Hi steve. Thanks for the list. I was surprised to not see Brookline Church of Christ, Boston, on your list. They were one of the earlier proponents of women participating in and/or leading worship. Candace Nicolds serves as their staff minister. They’ve also had female scholars serve as visiting preachers.
Maybe part 2 will update the ever enlarging list? I hope so. Thanks again for calling attention to these thoughtful churches.
Hi Robert,
Thanks much for your comment.
Thank you for pointing this out!
Looked at all, still no proof of biblical authority for woman to usurp authority over man.
Hi Leonard, Thank you for your comment.
You looked at all the material from these churches? It took me a really long time to look at the material, and I didn’t get through it all.
Where, specifically, do you disagree with their Biblical analysis?
What do you understand “usurp authority” to mean?
Do you think 1 Tim 2:12 refers to all kinds of teaching and authority, or is it just a particular kind or kinds? What kind of teaching / authority do you think it refers to?
God asks women throughout the Bible to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere. Here are 20+ Bible passages that do so..
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
Thank you, Steve
Thanks Steve,
I do not see this to be a heaven or hell issue. Each church must come to their best understanding of these scriptures. Because of conscience sake, some churches are not ready for this. The great thing about this is that one church does not have to answer to another church on this issue, only to God. I pray that those who oppose this can at keep the unity Spirit and the bond of peace with those who don’t. Our salvation is in Christ, not about getting the Bible perfectly understood…..thank God : )
Steve, based upon your articles regarding this matter I suppose it won’t be long before the church takes it upon themselves to override Genesis 3:16, “and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee,” as well as Ephesians 5:23-24, “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” I intentionally left out Eph 5:21-22 for the sole purpose of not causing contentious comments. Biblical leadership in the church is no different than leadership in the home as designed by our Lord himself from the very instant the fall occurred and man does not have the authority to change it.
All men (and women) are equal in the eyes of God, but if his body continues down the road it’s on, she will become just like the church in Pergamos (i.e., tolerant of anything which knowingly goes against the prescribed will of God).
Rodney O. Carter, Sr.
Evangelist among the churches of Christ
Hi Rodney, Thank you for your comment.
You wrote first that you are concerned that the church might override Genesis 3:16 (“and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”).
That concern makes little sense, though, as Genesis 3:16 is viewed as either (a) a curse or (b) a prediction by God as to what will happen post-Fall.
The concept that the church should not work to overcome a curse or its effects is the exact opposite of love your neighbor and love God.
The logic of not working to overcome a curse or its effects would make medical treatment and doctors’ attempts to keep us from dying a sin.
You mentioned second Ephesians 5:23-24 (“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”), noting you left out Ephesians 5:21-22.
Since Ephesians 5:21 tells husbands to be subject to their wives and wives to be subject to their husbands, leaving that out changes the import of what you quoted. It says “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”
Submission is a two-way street, not the one-way street you just made it out to be.
Moreover, “head” in Ephesians 5:23-24 is head in the sense of source or origin (as in headwater or the head of a line of kids at school).
You also left out Ephesians 5:25-33, which emphasizes the “one flesh” / “one body” nature of the wife-husband relationship —– they are at the same source or origin, the same body. Paul’s letters and other parts of the Bible emphasize Jesus is the source or origin of the church, using “head” in many places. See Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:15-16; 2:14-17, 4:4; 4:11-13; 5:23; see also Col. 1:18; Col. 2:10, 19; John 1; John 17:20-23). You can read more about this in the second half of this article: https://authentictheology.com/2020/10/20/the-bible-and-gender-by-the-international-churches-of-christ-teachers-service-team-book-review/
Your statement, by the way, that “Biblical leadership in the church is no different than leadership in the home …” is completely a man-made-up doctrine, something not found in scripture. Essentially, you are following a doctrine of man, not a doctrine of Christ.
You say “All men (and women) are equal in the eyes of God,” but actions and words by human beings claiming little girls can’t pray in their Sunday School classes but boys can, and that those little girl’s moms must be discriminated against in the assembly, barring them from speaking, while allowing and encouraging men to speak, is far from treating those girls and women as equal in the eyes of God. It’s the opposite.
It’s harmful to little girls and a sin to prohibit women from roles and functions in the church. We all ought to be working against it.
Lula, some men think they know more than God
There are so many more. Did you just choose these 10 for a reason?
Hi Julie, Yes, there are. These are roughly the first 10 whose study material, etc. I found online. I’m working on a part 2, maybe a part 3. Thanks!
The Stamford Church of Christ, in Connecticut has been gender inclusive for many years. The study materials are on our website: stamfordchurch.org. Particularly look for an essay, “Sons and Daughters” by Dale Pauls
Thank you!
This is so sad, that men are granting authority that God did not grant to women. They have left the doctrine.
Hi Leonard, Thank you for your comment.
God asks women throughout the Bible to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere. Here are 20+ Bible passages that do so..
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
Where, specifically, do you disagree with each of these church’s analysis of 1 Cor 14:34-35 and 1 Tim 2:12?
Thank you, Steve
Hi Steve. I have been the Worship Minister at the College Church of Christ in Fresno, CA for over 20 years. We have women speaking in the assembly every week. I appreciate your work in this area.
Thank you Sandra. I appreciate your work!
I guess “progress” is good, but the fact that this even has to be considered in 2019 is retrograde…women should undoubtedly be able to do ANYTHING s msn can do in Church. People of good consciousness and faith should be able to see no risk, snd only good. Once again indication of the glacial pace of movement and change in the COC….
I suppose you would have to disagree with most of the congregations listed, because they do not allow woman to serve as Elders or Evangelist’. I guess woman can’t do EVERYTHING men can do in the church. You and they have created another division. You have those who think woman can do anything, but these brethren will argue that’s not the case. It’s like the one cup movement all over. Let’s just keep dividing people. Good job ya’ll.
I will be studying this very closely but I don’t think that I will ever change my mind on elders or deacons. Because it says that an elder or deacon has to have only 1 wife. That makes it clear that these must be a man.
Hi Fred, Thank you for your comment.
Some of the linked material addresses elder / deacon, too. I’m going to summarize the scriptural analysis on the elder question in one of my upcoming articles.
Thank you,
Steve
I would like to say, I have no problem with a woman teaching a male child. However, I do have a problem with this new age mentality, that a woman can teach a man in the worship service, or participate in a worship setting. Next thing we hear is that a woman can be a Deacon or an Elder. My, My, you must go along with homosexuality, where the Deacon or Elder has to be the husband of one wife. Go on with your translations of this new age. The Bible doesn’t need your interpretations. God Forbid ! Men have their roles in the church & so do women. Thank you, no, I will do my part and not feel slighted in the least.
Hi Doris, Thank you for your comment.
Part of these 10 congregations’ point is that women speaking to, teaching, and having authority over men, in an assembly or elsewhere, is not a new age mentality at all.
Here are 20+ passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere:
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
And Romans 16:1-1 likely explicitly mentions a female deacon: “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.”
And most Bible scholars now recognize that 1 Timothy 3:11 plausibly refers to female deacons.
Several of these 10 congregations’ materials address elder. You can click on links in the article to read / view them. I’m going to try to summarize some of the views in a future article.
Thanks again for your comment.
Agreed , Satan is real busy
This is the work of the devil , Divide and concur . It’s plain the husband of one wife , Let him minister not her , The Bible teaches women their role and men their role
This indeed is sad. I was a part of a congregation that was going in this direction when I was a young adult single. They too claimed to have studied the matter, but when some of us expressed concern and gave scripture for our opposition, the elders had a meeting with us and said in the meeting that we were not going to look at the scriptures, and we were not going to study the scriptures, but rather we were going to try to find a “compromise”. It saddens me that these congregations have compromised the word of God. In 1 Timothy 2:1, the KJV uses the word “men”. This Greek word is more correctly translated as “people”, including both men and women. This is seen in many translations, such as the ESV. In verse 8, however, the Greek word translated as “men” is specifically the male gender. This verse addresses how men are to pray (in a public setting). The very next verse begins to speak of “women” – female people. In verse 12, Paul said, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man…” I have heard some state that they do not believe a woman leading a prayer is “exercising authority”. A friend of mine (a member of a denomination) while discussing this issue once told me “When someone leads a prayer, I pray what they pray”. There is a certain amount of authority in leadership, and submission to authority in following that leadership. That reflects the statement in verse 8-12. Men are to pray (in this public setting), yet women are to not have such authority. In the context of discussing the role of women in worship in 1 Corinthians 14:37, Paul said, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” Finally, I find it odd that many of these congregations clearly see the role of the evangelist and elders as being male, but do not mention the office of a deacon. Like elders, the scripture teaches a deacon must be “the husband (man) of one wife (woman)” (1 Tim 3:12) Indeed, a lot of these congregations already have female deacons, but they sometimes call them “ministers”.
All these scriptures that you gave it’s amazing how you have taken them completely out of context . Don’t know who taught you or where you learned but the scriptures you have are totally wrong
Hi Alex,
Thank you for your comments.
I believe you are referring to the 20+ scripture passages I quoted in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere.
They aren’t out of context. That is what those 20+ scripture passages show. God asks women over and over and over again to do such things.
You say “the scriptures you have are totally wrong.”
No, the scriptures are not wrong.
It just surprises some folks to read scripture passages and realize that God asks women to do these things.
And then they realize that the fact that God asks women — over and over and over again —- to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere, indicates that the 3-4 sentences some folks use to insist women not speak in the assembly are being misinterpreted.
And of course those 3-4 sentences are being misinterpreted. God would want us to exclude half the planet from loving (serving) God with all their heart, mind, and soul?! God would want us to exclude half the planet from loving (serving) others as themselves?!
Here is a link to the article with the 20+ passages:
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
Many of these scriptures are being distorted, used out of context, or just plain don’t indicate what you claim. Yes, there are some ways women may speak in the assembly, and at times are required to do so. (Singing, confessing Christ in order to be saved, etc.) The speaking they cannot scriptrually do is where they teach and have authority over men. An example of how the verses you gave are misused is the examples of women in the temple. In the temple, the Holy of holiness represents the place where God is. The holy place was a foreshadowing of the church. Women were not allowed beyond the court of women, therefore, they were never in the part of the temple that was a foreshadow of the church. These verses cannot be used to show authority for allowing women to speak in the assembly of the church. They were not in the part of the temple that was a foreshadowing of the church. For other verses, to use them to allow women to speak with authority, you must show the women were speaking, they were speaking with men present, they were speaking in a way that was not in subjection to male leadership, they were speaking with authority, and that their speaking did not violate passages like 1 Cor 14 or 1 Timothy 2. Furthermore, you must explain what those passages mean, if you contend they do not regulate roles in worship. You have failed to do so.
Hi Joe, Thank you for your comment.
Your entire comment is unscriptural, though. It is instead merely an assertion of doctrines of men, not God.
Please stick to the scripture, like I did, as I quoted 20+ passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere.
1. You said the 20+ scriptures “are being distorted, used out of context, or just plain don’t indicate what you claim.”—–
But you offer zero evidence, not quoting the scripture and explaining, but just making an assertion without proof.
And, of course, the passages are not being distorted, etc. I quote them exactly.
2. Then you say “Yes, there are some ways women may speak in the assembly, and at times are required to do so.”—-
… which of course shows that you acknowledge that 1 Cor 14:34-35 does not mean what a plain reading of it says: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; ….” (KJV)
3. You say women may and at times are required to sing in the church, and that “The speaking they cannot scriptrually do is where they teach and have authority over men.”——-
But the Apostle Paul says that singing is a kind of speaking. And Paul says, to women and men, “… be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs ….” (Ephesians 5:18-20) So, Paul says an example of speaking women can scripturally do is where they teach men with psalms (scripture!) and songs.
And the Apostle Paul says that speaking (teaching with scripture and songs) women can scripturally do is where they teach and admonish men. Paul says, to women and men, “… teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit …” (Colossians 3:16) So, Paul says speaking women can scripturally do is where they teach and have authority over men to admonish them.
Paul says right there women have authority to admonish men.
In sum, when you look at Ephesians 5:18-20 and Colossians 3:16, you can see that Paul says the speaking woman can scripturally do is where they teach and have authority over men.
And nearly all the rest of the Christian world recognizes that 1 Tim 2:12’s teach or usurp authority does not prohibit all types of teaching / authority, but only a very specific type, the type Paul refers to at the beginning of this letter when he tells the reader what kind of teaching/authority he is referring to (teaching of false doctrine done like a “teacher of the law” (which was viewed as having authority above the scripture then) while not knowing what they are talking about, done, as 2:12 emphasizes, in an authentein (domineering) way). You can read more here: https://authentictheology.com/2019/04/09/10-churches-of-christ-where-women-speak-in-the-assembly-1-timothy-212-teach-or-usurp-authority-part-3/
4. Then you make the ridiculous claim that the fact that the Prophet Anna spoke to a mixed group of men and women in the Temple means nothing about women speaking before a mixed group of men and women in the assembly.—————
First, 1 Tim 2:12 says nothing about it applying only in the assembly.
For centuries, it was viewed as applying everywhere in public —- in the assembly, in the workplace, in government, in speaking at a convention, in the military, in …. — and this was the Church of Christ view through at least the early part of the 20th century. You can read about this here: https://authentictheology.com/2018/04/12/david-lipscomb-church-of-christ-foundational-leader-all-the-teaching-of-the-bible-is-against-women-speaking-in-public-it-gets-worse/
The argument that 2:12 is about the worship assembly appears to have changed / been emphasized in the Churches of Christ around the 1940s — I haven’t pinpointed the date — to defend the continued silencing of women in the church while allowing them to work outside the home with no guilt.
So, the Prophet Anna teaching and having authority over men is enough to show that 2:12 does not refer to all types of teaching and authority.
Second, you claimed that since she wasn’t speaking in the Holy of Holies area of the Temple — where no one was allowed, except for a tiny exception for a tiny time — that it means nothing because only the Holy of Holies area “foreshadowed” the church.
Well, no. That is a doctrine of man. It isn’t the only “foreshadowing,” to use your term. The church is where *people* are gathered; it is not a physical place. Plus, the synagogue gathering is also a “foreshadowing” of the church. Indeed, ekklesia was used to refer to the synagogue on occasion.
So, the Prophet Anna speaking, teaching, prophesying, and praying to a mixed assembly of people in the Temple is, of course, an approved example of God’s appointed woman doing so.
5. It speaks ** volumes ** you skipped all the way to Scripture Passage # 8 (Prophet Anna) to find an example to find fault with, skipping the first seven (7!).——
Of course the first 7, like #8, shows God asking women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere. I take it that you couldn’t come up with anything to say about those 7.
And then the “fault” you find with #8 is not scriptural— but instead that the Prophet Anna didn’t violate the law by breaking into the Holy of Holies when she prayed, prophesied, and taught men and women, but instead she did so elsewhere in the Temple.
6. Then, bizarrely, you close by saying “For other verses, to use them to allow women to speak with authority, you must show the women were speaking, they were speaking with men present, they were speaking in a way that was not in subjection to male leadership, they were speaking with authority, and that their speaking did not violate passages like 1 Cor 14 or 1 Timothy 2. Furthermore, you must explain what those passages mean, if you contend they do not regulate roles in worship. You have failed to do so.”——-
All you have to do is open up the article and read 1-20 and you see that I did all that.
7. Here, again, is the article showing 20+ passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere.
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
You need to read what I actually said. More importantly, you need to read what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2. In 1 Corinthians 14:37, Paul said, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”
Hi Joe, Thank you for your response.
A
Of course I read what you actually said. I repeated it back as I responded to it. I even numbered it.
Indeed, while telling me I “need to read what I actually said,” you responded too quickly to have actually read and considered what my response said, including looking at the material cited. And you addressed zero of the substance of what I said.
B
Your quote of 1 Cor 14:37 is misleading. You quoted the KJV version, which says “If any man think himself to be a prophet ….”
The Greek word that the KJV translates man there is * tis *, which is an indefinite pronoun meaning “anyone,” “everyone,” or “any person.”
The KJV, written 400 years ago, very often uses the word “man” to mean humankind, anyone, any person, everyone, all human beings, etc. That was language used then. I think you know this.
It isn’t “man” in 14:37 as in a male person.
Modern translations, using language we use today, translate it “If anyone thinks they are a prophet …” or something along those lines.
C
And I read what Paul said in 1 Cor 14 and 1 Timothy 2. I also read what he and others said in the 20+ passages I cited earlier in which God, over and over and over again, asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere. (see the article I wrote that I linked)
I address 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2 in that same 20 Passages article. They don’t ask women not to speak in the assembly, as you claim. Instead, 1 Cor 14 asks married women not to speak out with disruptive (non-submissive) questions (probably to her husband) while the full assembly is together because it is a disgrace, but to instead ask those questions to her husband at home. 1 Tim 2:12 asks women not to teach false doctrine like they are a “teacher of the law” (which was viewed as above the scripture at the time) while not knowing what they are talking about, emphasizing that it must not be done in a domineering way. (You can see that Paul says at the very beginning of his letter that that is the kind of teaching/authority he is talking about in 1 Tim — see 1 Tim 1:1-8). I discuss this more here: https://authentictheology.com/2019/04/09/10-churches-of-christ-where-women-speak-in-the-assembly-1-timothy-212-teach-or-usurp-authority-part-3/
I could say a lot, but I will just say this: the burden of proof is on YOU to undermine the clear teaching of scripture in 1st Timothy 2.
You are effectively saying the following –
“I permit a woman to teach and exercise authority over a man”
“A woman doesnt have to learn quietly in submissiveness”
“Adam was formed first, but that doesnt matter”
“Eve was deceived, but so was Adam, so they are equals”
Let’s pretend for a moment that God wanted to make a distinction between the roles men and women play in the church (similar to the roles He gave them in the home and family).
Could God have worded it any way that would convince you? You could have just shipped those 20 verses to Him over and over and say you wont accept it. At some point, the scripture speaks and we either take it or we don’t.
And its telling to me that, like clockwork, churches fall in line with their “newfound understanding”, which is simply parroting what other groups have done 30 years prior. Its not study that is causing this, its society.
Hi S. Tramell, Thanks for your comment. Sorry for my delay.
You are mistaken in many ways.
A
First, when discussing a “burden of proof,” you must first ask: What is the starting point / primary principle? In other words, if 1 Tim 2:12 is absent from the Bible, is the starting point that women are or are not to speak, teach, etc., in the worship service?
Obviously, the answer is that women *are* to speak, as God asks women over and over and over and over again in the Bible to speak, teach, etc.; and it is immoral and a sin to block her from carrying out the Greatest Commandment —- from loving (serving) God and from loving (serving) her neighbor; and it is immoral and a sin to discriminate based on sex; and it is immoral and a sin to violate the Golden Rule; and it is immoral and a sin …… It goes on and on and on and on …. See, for example:
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
So, respectfully, the “burden of proof” is on the person who wishes to prohibit another image of God from speaking and teaching and who wishes to contradict the commands and wishes of God expressed over and over and over again in the Bible that women speak, teach, and have authority over men, etc.
The burden is on you.
B
Second, I have to say that I laughed out loud when you said “the clear teaching of scripture in 1st Timothy 2.”
No one of any credibility who has actually studied this issue claims that 1 Tim 2:12 has the meaning expressed by a plain reading of the common English translations of 1 Tim 2:12 alone.
No one of any credibility says women cannot teach men or that women cannot have any authority over men. This is as basic as looking to Col 3:16 and seeing that Paul says that women must teach men via scripture (psalms) and song and that women must admonish (have authority over!) men via scripture (psalms) and songs.
Everyone of any credibility recognizes that 1 Tim 2:12 refers to a particular *type* of teaching/authority.
Paul tells us at the very beginning of his letter what type of teaching/authority he is referring to.
He does so in 1 Tim 1:1-8: He tells Timothy that he wants Timothy to address those who are teaching false doctrine while acting like they are a “teacher of the law” (which was viewed as above the scripture at the time) while not knowing what they are talking about.
Then, Paul emphasizes in 2:12 that it must not be done in an authentein (usurping, aka domineering) way.
So, 2:12 isn’t asking women not to engage in all kinds of teaching / authority, just this particular kind (false doctrine like a teacher of the law (final say) while not knowing and doing it in a domineering way).
This doesn’t say anything about the normal kind of teaching / authority engaged in.
I discuss this more here: https://authentictheology.com/2019/04/09/10-churches-of-christ-where-women-speak-in-the-assembly-1-timothy-212-teach-or-usurp-authority-part-3/
C
So your litany of putting words in my mouth about “you are effectively saying the following” is not what I am saying at all.
Your saying that indicates you didn’t bother to read what I wrote.
D
Your assertion against the churches that have spent lots of time studying this scripture and praying about this weren’t guided by their study is patently false. Society as a whole is a place of sex discrimination and sex abuse. Clue in. Good people are trying to reduce and bring an end to that for our daughters.
E
I agree with your statement: “At some point, the scripture speaks and we either take it or we don’t.”
The scripture speaks! —– Here are 20+ scripture passages in which God asks women over and over and over and over again to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere.
https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
Prohibiting women from speaking in the worship service is immoral, harmful to young girls and women, and a sin.
My point in citing 1 Corinthians 14:37 is that this is in the context where Paul discussed the role of women in the church, and the limitations associated with that. Then Paul affirms that the things he said are “the commandments of the Lord”.
I understand the difference between the words for “people” and those for “men” (males only) or “women” (females).
I have previously made this point concerning 1 Timothy 2. Verse 1 uses the word for people. Verse 8 uses the word for “men” (males) and instructs them how to pray, apparently in a public setting or assembly. The very next verse begins to give instructions for “women” (females), including vs 12 That states Paul prevented them from teaching, or in any other way having authority over a man.
Your article with the 20+ verses reminds me of discussions with those that claim there are contradictions in the scriptures. Often they will list dozens of alleged contradictions at one time.
They know that all of those can’t be discussed at one time, especially in the limited space if a forum such as these posts. The massive amount of verses given at once makes it impossible for any of them to be addressed adequately, and leads to confusion.
Also, often if someone tries to discuss one of them as an example, (as I attempted by pointing the layout of the temple as it relates to the church), the person who posted the list often resists discussing one passage at a time. Also, distortions are inserted.
As I do when discussing something with those that use such a tactic, I will here also.
You have given (at least portions of) a lot of verses (with very little, if any, context). How about you choose the one verse or point that you believe best demonstrates your view so that we can discuss that. I believe this will help avoid any further confusion.
Obviously you have been confused about some of the points I have made, or else you have willfully tried to distort my points. Perhaps by discussing one verse or context at a time, this can be avoided.
Hi Joe, Thank you for your response. I apologize for my delay.
A
You say your point in quoting 1 Cor 14:37 was that “in the context where Paul discussed the role of women in the church, and the limitations associated with that. Then Paul affirms that the things he said are “the commandments of the Lord”.”—–
First, “the limitation” Paul mentions is asking married women not to speak out with disruptive (non-submissive) questions because doing so is a disgrace, but to instead ask those of her own husband at home. This is discussed in some detail here: https://authentictheology.com/2018/05/22/part-3-most-church-of-christ-colleges-no-longer-exclude-women-from-leading-in-worship-services-does-it-contradict-1-cor-1434-35-women-should-remain-silent/
Second, the role of the women in the church Paul discusses is speaking in the assembly in an orderly way, just like men:
Paul says in verse 37 “what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.”
He then says “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy ….” (v. 39).
And he has just gotten through, multiple times, giving approved examples of women speaking in the assembly, telling women to speak in the assembly, etc.:
For example:
++ Women—part of “the whole church,” “everyone,” “brothers and sisters,” and “all”—are to speak, prophesy, sing a hymn, teach, preach, and have authority in a mixed worship assembly:
(1) The Apostle Paul said, when “the whole church comes together … if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin …. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming ‘God is really among you!’” (1 Corinthians 14:23-25; see also 1 Cor 11:5, 14:6, 20)
(2) Paul said, when “brothers and sisters … come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. …” (1 Cor 14:26)
(3) Paul said, in the assembly, women and men, “you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” (1 Cor 14:31; see also 14:23, 26, 39-40; 11:5; 1:1-2)
++ Women, as part of “every one,” are to speak, including prophesying and praying, in a mixed assembly:
(9) Paul said, to women and men, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy … so that the church may be edified.” (1 Cor 14:5; see also 1 Cor 1:1-2; 11:5; 14:23, 26, 39-40) Speaking in tongues included prayer. (e.g., 1 Cor 14:14 (“For if I pray in a tongue ….”))
Women are to pray out loud in a mixed assembly as part of Paul wanting everyone to pray with “understanding” (out loud, regular way, not in tongues):
(10) Paul, telling women and men, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,” explains “if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; …. Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.” (1 Cor 14:5, 12-17; see also 1:1-2; 14:6, 23, 26)
++ Example of women speaking, praying, and prophesying in the churches:
(12) Paul said, “I praise you …. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head …. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? … For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.” (1 Cor 11:2, 4-5, 13-16) “In the following … I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. … I hear that when you come together as a church, … [discussing challenges then with their practice of the Lord’s Supper in the assembly]. So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. ” (1 Cor 11:17-34)
B
1 Tim 2:12 does not, as you say, “states Paul prevented them from teaching, or in any other way having authority over a man.”—-
If Paul “prevented them from teaching,” then he would prevent them from singing, as Paul said in Col 3:16 that singing is a type of teaching and told women to teach men via singing and scripture (psalms).
And if Paul “prevented them from “in any other way having authority over a man,” then he would prevent them from singing, as Paul gave women the authority to admonish men via singing and scripture (psalms) in Col 3:16.
No credible Bible scholar says, as you said, “Paul prevented them from teaching, or in any other way having authority over a man.”
Just flip one page back in your Bible, and you see at the beginning of the letter, Paul tells Timothy what *** kind *** of teaching/authority Paul was writing about in 1 Timothy: the teaching of false doctrine while doing it like a “teacher of the law” (who was then viewed as having more authority than the scripture) while not knowing what they are talking about. And Paul emphasizes in 2:12 that it is that kind of teaching/authority done in an authentein (domineering) way over men that Paul doesn’t allow.
THAT is the *kind* of teaching/authority Paul was asking women not to do. You can read more about this here: https://authentictheology.com/2019/04/09/10-churches-of-christ-where-women-speak-in-the-assembly-1-timothy-212-teach-or-usurp-authority-part-3/
The normal kind of teaching/authority done in the worship service is not what Paul is talking about.
C
The Church of Christ is nearly alone in prohibiting women from speaking in the worship service.
Only somewhere around 3-4% of Christianity completely prohibits them from speaking like the CoC, and the CoC makes up a big chunk of that percentage.
As far as I can find, the only religious groups of size that completely prohibit women from speaking in the worship service in the vast majority of their meetings is the Churches of Christ and Islam.
D
You complained that set out a bit over 20 passages in my article, comparing that with having to address dozens, calling the passages I set out a “massive amount.” I don’t know what to tell you about that. Here’s a link to them: https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
You skipped right over the first 7 Joe to discuss #8. I pointed out what was wrong with what you said about #8 and you said zero about it in response.
My point is that God asks women over and over and over and over again to speak to, teach, and have authority over men.
This part can be solved fairly easily: Do you deny that God asks—via command, approved example, and/or necessary inference—women, in those passages, to speak to, teach, and have authority over men?
Thus, arguing that 1 Tim 2:12 means, as you said, “Paul prevented them from teaching, or in any other way having authority over a man” is an interpretation that contradicts the rest of the Bible and it is easy to see it must mean something different. Indeed, context (just looking at 1 Tim 1:1-8) shows it means something different.
What it means is fairly straightforward to see, as discussed above. Nearly everyone else—and I mean nearly everyone—has figured out that it does not mean that women must be completely silenced. And those who thought it means women can’t preach are starting to figure out it doesn’t meant that, either.
It’s way past time for this tradition to end.
You have a problem. You say because there are ways in which both men and women speak (such as singing), then women are allowed to speak in leadership roles, such as leading prayers. 1 Timothe 2:8-12 contrasts the role of “men” (the Greek word for male humans) and in particular to praying (vs 8) and the role of “women”. There are ways women must not speak in, but “must remain silent in the churches”. I believe the phrase “over a man” applies to both “teach” and “have authority”. You take the fact that there are ways in which women speak, to allow them to participate in leadership roles.
Furthermore, if verses show the leadership of women, to show the points you are trying to make, it has to be established that those activities are not women leading other women or children, therefore, not having authority over men.
In Titus 2:3-4 there is the instruction for older women to teach younger women. There you have women teaching, but not teaching or having authority over a man.
Finally, you said, “The Church of Christ is nearly alone in prohibiting women from speaking in the worship service.” Truth is not a matter of majority opinion.
Hi Joe, Thank you for your reply.
You dodged nearly all of my points, though. And one you responded to shows it is you that has a problem.
A.
You didn’t reply at all to Section A: My pointing out that multiple verses in 1 Cor provides that women are to speak, teach, etc., in the assembly in an orderly way, just like men, and that 1 Cor 14:34-35 is just that Paul is asking married women not to speak out with disruptive (non-submissive) questions because doing so is a disgrace, but to instead ask those of her own husband at home.
You dodged it completely.
B.
You replied as to 1 Tim 2:12, but you made an obvious (and fatal for your argument) error.
Indeed, the error you made signal that you have not studied this issue much at all. You advocate for discrimination against women while not having given it much thought.
You say “I believe the phrase “over a man” applies to both “teach” and “have authority”. You take the fact that there are ways in which women speak, to allow them to participate in leadership roles.”
Anyone who has spent 10 minutes studying 1 Tim 2:12 knows that the word “over” goes with “authority” and does not, as you say, apply to “teach.”
“have authority over” is the translation of one word. “Over” is not a separate word that applies to both to teach and have authority. This is really basic stuff.
Here is the Greek phrase at the beginning of 1 Tim 2:12: “γυναικὶ δὲ διδάσκειν οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός ….”
αὐθεντεῖν (authentein) is translated as “usurp authority over” or “assume authority over” or something along those lines.
ἀνδρός is man or husband. διδάσκειν is to teach.
So, your argument fails. And reveals that you advocate for discrimination without having considered this much at all.
C
I agree with you statement that “Truth is not a matter of majority opinion.”
My point is that the fact that somewhere around 97% of Christianity does not completely prohibit women from speaking in the worship assembly, as you advocate, that ought to signal to you that your interpretation is highly likely wrong. Indeed, it is.
D
I pointed you again to the 20 passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere: https://authentictheology.com/2018/09/03/20-scripture-passages-telling-women-to-speak-teach-lead-and-have-authority-over-men-in-the-assembly-and-elsewhere/
I pointed out that you dodged the first 7 passages in your very first response. You continued this approach by dodging them again.
I asked you a straightforward question: “Do you deny that God asks—via command, approved example, and/or necessary inference—women, in those passages, to speak to, teach, and have authority over men?”
I pointed you directly to the passages, gave you cites, quoted the scripture, gave summaries, ….
You dodged, not answering. I’ll ask again: Do you deny that God asks—via command, approved example, and/or necessary inference—women, in those passages, to speak to, teach, and have authority over men? Yes or no?
E
You closed with the bizarre and weak argument that “it has to be established that those activities are not women leading other women or children, therefore, not having authority over men.”
Your argument indicates you haven’t bothered to read the 20 passages. It is fall-down easy to see that they are referring to women and men. It’s right there.
Even the one you raised, Titus 2:3-4, you say “there is the instruction for older women to teach younger women. There you have women teaching, but not teaching or having authority over a man.”——————you left out the first part of it— in verse 3, elder women are encouraged to teach what is good to *** all ****, both men and women (Titus 2:3), and ***then** especially to younger women (2:4-5):
“3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.” (Titus 2:3-5)
F
It is harmful for young girls to be discriminated against Sunday after Sunday after Sunday. It is harmful to make her sit there and watch her mom and her female friends be discriminated against Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.
https://authentictheology.com/2018/11/28/church-of-christ-practice-harms-girls-long-term-suggests-2018-study/
It is time for it stop.
You raised an objection when I said “over” applies to both “speak” and “have authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12 and you discussed the Greek word for “have authority over”. This is one of the dangers in taking a word or phrase out of context, as you neglected to consider the word “nor”.
This Greek word indicates that not only is the preceding negated, but also that which naturally precedes from it. An example of this would be if 100 is not enough, then neither is 90, 80 or 70.
In this verse, for a woman to speak (with authority over a man) is not permitted, and neither is the women having authority over a man in any other way. Having authority is that which naturally proceeds from that type of speaking.
You have correctly indicated that singing is speaking, but yet it is reciprocal (“speaking to one another”) and not indicative of one having authority over the others. If you think about it, it is the song leader that has the authority in our singing. He determines which songs and which verses the congregation will speak. The congregation submits to that leadership (authority).
You repeatedly accused me of discrimination against women.
1 Cor 11:3 says, “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
Is it discriminatory for man to be subject to Christ? Is it discriminatory for Christ to be subject to God? The answer to both of those questions is “No!” Since that is the case, then properly understood it is also not discriminatory for women to have certain roles in which they are subject to the roles appointed for men in leadership.
In the above verse, is it demeaning for Christ to be subject to the Father, or for men to be subject to Christ? If not, then it is also not demeaning for women to be subject to the leadership in the church.
Do you feel it is demeaning when you sing the songs the song leader has chosen that the congregation will speak to one another in song? Is it demeaning when your mind is directed to consider certain passages in a lesson presented by the preacher?
Someone (a member of the Baptist denomination) once told me, “When someone leads a prayer, I pray what they pray.” Is that demeaning to follow the authority of that leadership?
There is a certain amount of authority in leadership, and submission in following that leadership. That is how I see the word “authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12, and that authority is bestowed on the men of the congregation. (Again, the Greek word for “men” in verse 8 is exclusively masculine.)
How do you define “authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12?
Hi Joe, Thank you for your reply.
I.
You dodged responding to points A, C, D, E, and F. You said absolutely nothing in response.
II.
As to point B, I pointed out that you made an obvious and fatal-to-your-argument error by claiming the word “over” applies to both “teach” and “have authority.” Like I said, anyone who has spent 10 minutes studying 1 Tim 2:12 knows that the word “over” goes with “authority” as those two English words together are part of the translation of the Greek word authentein.
Instead of acknowledging your error, you persisted to argue that you are right, arguing “in this verse, for a woman to speak (with authority over a man) is not permitted, and neither is the women having authority over a man in any other way. Having authority is that which naturally proceeds from that type of speaking.”
Joe, “speaking” is not discussed in 2:12. It is “to teach” that is discussed there. And what you argued is simply circular and does not make sense.
III.
You then admitted that singing is a type of speaking. But you claimed that this is “not indicative of having authority over the others.”
That is wrong.
You ignored that signing is a type of teaching. And a type of authority. I pointed this out to you before, but you ignored it.
The Apostle Paul tells women in Col. 3:16 to “teach and admonish” both men and women “with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God ….” (Colossians 3:16)
Thus, Paul tells women to teach men. And he gives women authority to admonish men.
IV.
Then, after ignoring points A, C, D, and F, Col 3:16, and the 20+ passages in which God asks women to speak to, teach, and have authority over men, in an assembly and elsewhere, you then claim that you are not engaged in discrimination against women by demanding that no woman read scripture, lead singing, help pass the collection plate, give communion remarks, lead prayer, preach, make announcements, help pass the communion plates, make announcements, etc., etc., in the worship service, that no woman serve as elder, that no woman serve as deacon, that no woman teach men in Sunday School, that no little girl pray in Sunday School when there is a baptized boy present, that no woman teach high school age boys in Sunday School, etc., etc., etc., etc.
That is textbook sex discrimination.
V.
You try to claim that it is OK to engage in sex discrimination because 1 Cor 11:3 says “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
But “head” there is not “head” in the sense of hierarchical authority over someone.
The sentence would make no sense if that were the case because Christ IS God. (See, e.g., John 1.)
“Head” (kephalē in Greek) in 1 Cor 11:3 could mean (a) source (as in headwater), (b) first representative of (non-hierarchical) (as in head of a line of kids at school), (c) authority over (as in head of a company), (d) a physical head (as in the head on your body), or have another meaning.
If you read 1 Cor 11:1-17, you can see that Paul is trying for some analogy, metaphor, and word-play using heads (he’s talking about being the head of and shaving heads and dishonoring your head and …. And image of and glory of …. “).
In other words, it is immediately clear that Paul is going for a word play.
You can see “head” is used there in the sense of (a) source and/or (b) first representative of (non-hierarchical).
#1) In fact, you can see in the rest of 1 Cor 11:1-17—- the context — that Paul is talking about (b) representation (the glory of, dishonor, etc.) and (a) source the whole time, not authority.
Here is the rest of it. I put an (a) or (b) after each time talking about source/representation below; some are both:
“5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head (b) — … 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God (b); but woman is the glory of man (b). 8 For man did not come from woman (a), but woman from man (a); 9 neither was man created (a) for woman, but woman for man (a). 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. [v. 10 is a mystery and translated 30 different ways. Notice that Paul uses the actual word for authority here, indicating that if he meant authority in v. 3, he could have used the word for authority, not head.] 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man (a), so also man is born of woman (a). But everything comes from God. (a) …”
#2) Paul uses the normal word for hierarchical authority in 1 Cor 11:10, just 7 verses later (exousian). If he meant such authority in verse 3, he could have easily used that word. Instead, he used kephale, indicating he meant something different that hierarchical authority in 1 Cor 11:3.
#3) Verse 10 is unclear but may very well mean that a woman is to have hierarchical authority over her own self; it’s just that she’s not independent of man like man isn’t independent of woman. (“10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.”)
#4) The interpretation that your assert (that man is authority over woman not it is not a two-way street) is inconsistent with Ephesians 5:21 (“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”). However, the interpretation of (a) and/or (b) above is consistent with the instruction to “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”
#5) The order of pairings in verse 3 also suggests it is not authority/hierierchical. If it were hierarchical, it would go in a different order.
VI.
You ask “How do you define “authority” in 1 Timothy 2:12?” I’ve answered that a couple of times already in my replies to you. Here is a good place to start: https://authentictheology.com/2019/04/09/10-churches-of-christ-where-women-speak-in-the-assembly-1-timothy-212-teach-or-usurp-authority-part-3/
Here is more detail: https://authentictheology.com/2018/05/30/most-church-of-christ-colleges-no-longer-exclude-women-from-leading-in-worship-services-violates-1-timothy-212-do-not-permit-a-woman-to-teach-or-to-assume-authority-over-a-man-p/
VII.
I’ve responded to all your questions, Joe, and you’ve responded to close to zero of my points. Yet you insist discriminating against half of those God made in God’s image is right. If you want to respond on the substance to A, C, D, F, and the points made above in I – VI, I’ll reply again, but if you send another comment that ignores most of the substance, I am going to stop posting and responding to them, as I have limited time.
VIII.
Again, it is harmful for young girls to be discriminated against Sunday after Sunday after Sunday. It is harmful to make her sit there and watch her mom and her female friends be discriminated against Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.
https://authentictheology.com/2018/11/28/church-of-christ-practice-harms-girls-long-term-suggests-2018-study/
It is time for it to stop.
Do you have any resource that tells whether the churches that changed their practice have grown or shrunk? Two areas. Ones that allow all but elder and preacher and ones that allow all?
Hi Bill, Thank you for your question.
No, unfortunately, I don’t.
There is a report at the Wineskins site on a 2016 study that found that half of the Churches of Christ that make this change grow or stay steady and half shrink at the announcement / implementation points (basically, at “day 1,” a group either leaves or they don’t). And for those that shrink, they shrink about 20%.
This doesn’t really tell us anything about “day 2” — do they then grow or shrink after implementation. (I suppose it depends on which 20% leaves! If the “complainers and bringing everybody else down and never did much” people are the ones leaving, then it might actually help membership overall, for example.)
The other data reported suggests removing or loosening this prohibition on women and girls would led to growth because as of, on average, 10 years later, of the Churches or Christ making such a change reported:
+ 90% saying they would do it again (!)
+ 51% reporting increased visitors (45% no change),
+ increased contributions, average 16% gain
+ 53% reporting more support (39% same),
+ 68% saying they saw increased participation (28% no change),
+ 15% saw increased participation by men (only 6% reporting decreased) ….
http://wineskins.org/2016/05/24/womens-roles-in-churches-of-christ-survey-2016/
At some point, I might research and put together a report reflecting your question. It’s a good one.
My thought is that the Churches of Christ as a whole, or a large number of them, would need to change on the issue in order to make a big difference on the perception of potential visitors. In other words, that an individual congregation does not see growth after making the change wouldn’t be shocking, but if several Churches of Christ in the area made the change, such that the “brand” lost its association with discrimination over time, then they would likely all eventually see growth. Our “brand” is such that people think that a Church of Christ does this, so an individual church who doesn’t prohibit women would have a hard time getting the word out that it does not do it. Potential visitors would assume that a Church of Christ prohibits women from speaking because that is what our brand connotes. It would take some time and work after the change.
I just published an article that describes how the evangelical denominations that have been growing over the last 20-30 years are ones with female preachers.
And evangelical denominations that are shrinking fastest are the ones most restrictive on women.
People point to mainline denominations, who ordain women, shrinking, but it has been shown that mainline denominations shrinking is almost solely due to their birth rates (they were older than evangelicals on average, for example, and concentrated in a different geographic / economically situated area that saw less growth — mid-west, rust belt, farm belt, steel country, ….).
https://authentictheology.com/2019/11/13/church-of-christ-decline-worsens-2400-a-month-depart-treatment-of-women-girls-factor/
Hi Bill,
I should add that the Churches of Christ as a whole appear to be either the fastest-shrinking evangelical denomination or the second-fastest shrinking one —- while not make this change.
We have shrunk over the last 20-30 years while evangelical Christianity as a whole has stayed roughly steady and even grown at times and in place that we have shrunk.
And our pace of decline has been accelerating lately. (https://authentictheology.com/2019/11/13/church-of-christ-decline-worsens-2400-a-month-depart-treatment-of-women-girls-factor/)
We now appear on track to lose 1/4 of our members in the next 15 years. 2400 people a month leave and 9 congregations a month close (net).
Almost all of the growing evangelical denominations and groups allow women to preach (Assemblies of God, etc.).
People point to mainline denominations as shrinking as reasons not to have female preachers, but researchers have shown they shrunk because of lower birth rates than evangelicals. And Churches of Christ do not have that excuse or the excuse of being in areas of the country that have not seen population growth like areas mainlines are concentrated in (rust belt, mid-west, steel country, farm country, parts of the northeast, etc.), as opposed to the southeast / Texas etc.). And mainline have seen an uptick over the past couple of years (https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/march/evangelical-nones-mainline-us-general-social-survey-gss.html). We have seen an accelerated downturn.
Numbers by itself isn’t a reason to make the change— has to be scripture based —- but it is a reason to get motivated to finally make it a priority to take the time as a congregation and pull out our our Bibles and take a hard look at the issue, I think.
I think if we don’t make this change very soon, we will pass the point of no return as a distinct group and then it will be just a matter of time.
Steve, thank you for all the research you put into this. I appreciate your willingness to respond to each comment and for your thoroughness in each one too. Keep up the great work. Also, Broadway church of Christ in Lubbock, has women in the assembly. Love it!
Thank you Scott.
I think that women preachers and working in the service a total disregard for the scripture
You could add the Downtown church in searcy to this list.